vixxenvic:
what a wonderful thread- thank you all for giving voice (err, word) to the thoughts i've had of pippin since my first reading of lotr 23 years ago. i really wish i had some scholarly, high thoughts to add- but you have all said them! i was of course first taken by the youthful promise in pippin and gandalf's careful, though sometimes seemingly harsh nurturing of him in order for this ernil i pheriannath to shine! i think gandalf's special insight into pippin's character is captured well in the movie- if too briefly to suit my taste- but then i'd gladly sit through 12 hours straight to see the whole tale from cover to cover! to put it way too simplistically (hmm, is that a word?) the very quality that is early on identified as a flaw- pippin's way of doing the wrong thing at the wrong time tempers under fiery trials to become the very quality that saves the day when he instinctively intuits what the need is and what or who would remedy the situation... i just love pippin! i would also have to say that of all the characters, i identify most with pippin.
love and hugs to all in the forum.
pipkin sweetgrass:
oh, me too! i have some very pippin moments to this day!
besides, what good is life if you can't live it! sometimes, in order to do the right thing, you must do the "wrong" thing. nothing wrong in making mistakes, just don't learn from the same mistakes over and over again!
maggiest:
what a fantastic thread!
i, unfortunately, am one of "those people" who had trouble reading the books when i was younger. i didn't pick them up again until after ttt. for me, being able to put a face to the characters really helps me a lot.
one does have to live and learn from life but, like pippin, we can go on older and wiser but still retain our sense of humor.
now that i have 3 job interviews coming up next week, maybe i can spend the weekend relaxing and catching up on some well deserved lotr reading.
pipkin sweetgrass:
the first casualty of war is innocence. sad but true. still though, merry and pip both retain much of their former selves, which i am very, very grateful for. they are not transformed so much as molded to something a little stronger and deeper.
i enjoyed the posts about pip helping merry so much that it inspired me to write a little something. call it a gift to the other posters of this thread, and enjoy:
merry remembered how it all began; pippin and himself. he had been eight years old when his cousin was born, and he didn't see why the adults would take on so over a little baby when there was a nice young lad such as himself around, who had to be more fun than a helpless little baby. relatives had come from some ways off to see the addition to the took family; after all, the little thing was the only son of the thain. some day he would be the took.
at the time of the gathering, little peregrin was no more than six months old. merry didn't see why he had to be dragged along when there were so many more fun things to do than look at a baby.
the smials was a bit crowded. merry was bored. he decided to go exploring. the baby was sleeping, anyway.
he found a door opened just a crack, and decided to go in, seeing a few toys lying about. he crept into the room. it was a pleasant place. the window was open, and the sun was pouring through it like butterscotch. then merry heard a tiny sound. near the window in a cradle lay the object of all this commotion.
merry crept closer. as he knelt beside the cradle, there lay a remarkable thing, though he did not then know it. this would be his life-long friend, more brother than cousin.
merry peeped over the edge of the cradle. he was regarded with a very large and deep green set of eyes, fringed with long, thick lashes. the tiny ears looked like little seashells. little peregrin looked at the bigger child and made a small, soft, happy sound.
merry looked at the tiny feet. he reached in and gently took one in his own small hand. some day, the soles would be tough as leather... but now... merry thought they felt much like the tender, newly unfurled petals of spring flowers. the little feet would some day be covered with a thatch of woolly hair, but for now, it felt like the fur of a new kitten.
the baby smiled up at him.
"well, hullo, there!" merry said, softly. the little one laughed. merry decided to pick the baby up. as he lifted the tiny thing, the baby reached out little fingers to explore the child's face.
the baby smelled just like apples to merry and since that's what he smelled like, merry decided then and there to call him "pippin," meaning "little apple."
the adults had found him holding the tiny prize, and were amused that merry, who had been so reluctant to see the baby, now seemed enchanted with the little thing. merry's parents asked, "would you like to have one like that?"
merry had paused and thought for a bit, then shook his head, "no. no, i don't think i want one like him, rather. no, i am sure i do not, i don't want one like this one... i fancy i want this one."
and so it had begun.
hope you all enjoyed that. i'm so grateful for a place to safely discuss our pip without hearing people talk about how stupid and careless he is, and very grateful billy played the most perfect pippin i can imagine, so i'd like to dedicate that little tale to this place, you good people, and mr. boyd.
palantir:
that was so amazing, thank you!! i loved it!
pippin really represents the changes and feelings that everyone in the fellowship had to endure. inside, they must have all had to mature to some extent, but pippin was so innocent and fresh when they started out, his change was more apparent. they're all on their own journeys, but pippin is the epitome of a journey to maturity. he's so childish that you almost want him to grow up a little for the sake of the fellowship, but when he finally does, it's bittersweet. you know it had to happen, but thinking that pippin will never have the same innocence he did before is unsettling. he's still got the same optimism as before, but he'll never totally be carefree and simple again. i think everyone feels that growing up, i know i do. people can relate to him so much because while everyone wants to be older and more in charge, part of you always wants to be a six year old playing in the sprinkler again. when he takes charge in the scouring of the shire, it made me so proud but it also showed that even once he got home, he was a changed man... or hobbit, rather...
pipkin sweetgrass:
oh, he would correct you on "man" all right! that part of him tickles me.
okay, on to another ernil i pheriannath moment...
this takes place when denethor is deep in his madness, having taken faramir to what is intended to be a death by being burned alive.
"... then denethor spoke in a low voice. 'here we will wait,' he said. 'but send not for the embalmers. bring us wood quick to burn, and lay it all about us, and beneath, and pour oil upon it. and when i bid you, thrust in a torch. do this, and speak no more to me. farewell!'
'by your leave, lord!' said pippin and turned and fled in terror from the deathly house. 'poor faramir!' he thought, 'i must find gandalf. poor faramir! quite likely he needs medicine more than tears, oh, where can i find gandalf? in the thick of things, i suppose, and he will have no time for dying men or madmen.'
at the door he turned to one of the servants who had remained on guard there. 'your master is not himself,' he said, 'go slow! bring no fire to this place while faramir lives! do nothing until gandalf comes!'
'who is the master of minas tirith?' the man answered. 'the lord denethor or the grey wanderer?'
'the grey wanderer or no one, it would seem.' said pippin, and he sped back and up the winding way as swiftly as his feet would carry him, past the astonished porter, out through the door, and on, until he came near the gate of the citadel. the sentinel hailed him as he went by, and he recognized the voice of beregond.
'whither do you run, master peregrin?' he cried.
'to find mithrandir,' pippin answered.
'the lord's errands are urgent, and not to be hindered by me,' said beregond; 'but tell me quickly, if you may, what goes forward? whither has my lord gone? i have just come on duty, but i heard that he passed towards the closed door, and men were bearing faramir before him.'
'yes, said pippin, 'to the silent street.'
beregond bowed his head to hide his tears. 'they said that he was dying,' he said, 'and now he is dead.'
'no,' said pippin, 'not yet. and even now, his death might be prevented, i think. but the lord of the city, beregond, has fallen before his city is taken. he is fey and dangerous.' quickly he told of denethor's strange words and deeds. 'i must find gandalf at once.'
'then you must go down to battle.'
'i know. the lord has given me leave. but, beregond, if you can, do something to stop any dreadful thing from happening.'
'the lord does not permit those who wear the black and silver to leave their post for any cause, save at his own command.'
'well, you must choose between orders and the life of faramir,' said pippin, 'and as for others, i think you have a madman to deal with, not a lord. i must run. i will return if i can.'"
ah, there he is, our prince! see how he has taken charge? "the grey wanderer or no one, it would seem. said pippin, and he sped back and up the winding way as swiftly as his feet would carry him, past the astonished porter, out through the door..."
the porter is plainly surprised at pippin's back sassiness. i love this in him, it makes my heart just swell with pride for him.
and then: "well, you must choose between orders and the life of faramir," said pippin, "and as for others, i think you have a madman to deal with, not a lord. i must run. i will return if i can."
you go pip! he has taken charge of these big people in a way they do not expect he is capable of. just goes to show you, it ain't the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
oh, to be a hobbit lass! how i would swoon for him! i love it when a man takes charge! i know it isn't feminist, but i'm not a feminist, i'm an individualist. i've been told i'm the worst kind of woman, a woman who "thinks like a man." okay, i'll buy that, but that doesn't mean i don't love men, especially one who can take the reigns when the need (or the want, for that matter!) arises.
how i admire our hero at this point! oh pippin, you hunk of hobbity male-ness! i can just see eyes burning with green fire when i read this. (now see what you did, billy? pippin will always have green eyes for me, now. ooooooooo, i love that! and i am oh, so grateful for that!)
so to those who see pippin in only the most superficial light i say this: phhhhhthhhhhht! ha! (thumbs nose) don't dis my pippin!
you know who else takes charge here? bmg does! god, i love men. i think bmg is truly awesome, and am in awe of him. never change, bmg, you're just too good as you are.
awesome hobbit:
as a brand new poster i have to tell you that this thread was the one that convinced me to join this forum. i have been following your discussion and have loved every minute of it.
i think my daughter (who is in her early 20's) was surprised when she learned that my favorite character in lotr was pippin. i found so much in his character that i was able to connect with personally and loved the growth that we see in him through the books. i so hope the third movie does a good job showing us this! pippin is a wonderful character and billy boyd did a fantastic job portraying him.
i think i saw in pippin strength that is often hidden until you are tested or tried by some circumstance in your life. who would have thought this little hobbit would become the hero he does?
i'm looking forward to some more great discussion about pippin the "awesome hobbit!"
lostsailors:
aaaaaaaaaaaaw! i haven't been here in a month or so because of life having more urgent needs, but when i came back my heart just leapt seeing this thread still here, alive and kicking!
palantir your excerpts on page 2 from rotk nearly made me weep!granted, i'm a little loopy as i was up until 5 am last night, and i am bound to find a turkey baster moving in this state, but, oh, it was so beautiful!
it's one of my most favourite parts in all of the series. poor merry is utterly consumed by the darkness around him and cannot see out of his own despair anymore, but pippin, though frightened by his friend's condition, still tries to keep a light spirit. he's terrified, but won't give away that he is for the sake of merry.
and sweet sweetgrass! again, i am in an emotionally moveable mood, and love sweet things normally, but my heart just went pitter-patter all through your post. it was so darling! i loved it so.
sniff, i'm so glad this thread is here!
crankyoldelf:
i haven't posted to this thread but i have been reading an enjoying it thoroughly. merry and pippin (especially pip) have been my favorites since my first reading of lotr in the early 60s. keep up the excellent observations! and i may look into your "older group" since i know i'm one of the senior forum members on this site.
pipkin sweetgrass:
why thank all y'all! i let my grand daughters read my little story and they were very impressed. i did one over at torc called peregrin victorious, a very light-hearted romp. it's in the scriptorium of imladris board. it's fluff, but it's fun. i do this to amuse myself and my family, and because i'm just so grateful to have such great heroes, even though they are fictional, they are somehow very real and familiar, even upon the first reading. mr. boyd is guilty in this, too, he's helped me find my muse. he just made pippin so much more real.
all hail the kilted one!
* brie *:
pippin goes on quite a journey through the three books, and i don't think that anyone would have brought the same element and believability to him that billy boyd did. i think that the important relationships in the movie were portrayed excellently.... pippin's relationship with merry, of course, and merry and pippin's relationship with boromir, of course, the evolution of the bond pippin has with gandalf has been amusing thus far... i can't wait to see the third installment of the trilogy to see where the actors take it. pippin, through everything he goes through, manages to retain that bit of optimism. no matter how bad things get, he still keeps going, and keeping up the spirits of the others.
tookishgirl:
i agree that by far the instance in which pip saves faramir's life is my favorite pippin moment - as far as showing his maturity. especially because initially not even the children of gondor take him very seriously, and suddenly he's taken charge of the entire situation. another great part is... spoiler...
during the scouring of the shire when both he and merry take over the whole uprising. it really shows how both of them have come full-circle. when they first left the shire they were still very much children, running around stealing food (and hobbit lasses' hearts no doubt) and getting into all kinds of mischief; it is highly unlikely they were ever looked at with any amount of seriousness. but when they return they are both riding horses (well, ponies), geared in the armor of gondor and rohan, and prepared for war. it is they who gather the other hobbits, they who set the traps for the ruffians, and they who fight and come out victorious. though sad as it is that they had to fight for their own land, it is impressive that they came out on top within a matter of a day or less (odd the hobbits should be far more learned in the ways of war than the big men ). i greatly doubt that merry or pippin were ever seen as just silly children after that.
pipkin sweetgrass:
pippin is the very spirit of inner dichotomy. he switches gears so easily!
i love him because he's so brash and brassy that there isn't much he *wouldn't* do... it's part of his charm and part of what makes him so very brave.
i get the feeling that had that porter given him even a skoshi bit of guff, pippin's bullroarer ancestry would have come to force, and the porter would have been very, very sorry.
i imagine that when he married, many hobbit lasses wept bitterly.
it took a lot of guts to call denethor a madman to the face of a loyal tirithian. i wonder if anyone but pippin could have gotten away with it?
you know my friend that passed on? she was like that. the alleged woman (don't ask) had a way with inspiring people to listen when they didn't want to, and could get away with bloody murder had she wanted to, even with me, who knew her so well.
i suspect pippin was much the same. oddly enough, she had green eyes, too, and was a wee one herself, standing five foot one. "small but perfectly formed" indeed.
some people just have that kind of charm, and pippin is one of them. people take all kinds of behavior from them they would ordinarily rebel against. they are natural leaders, and pippin is this, too. i wouldn't cross this hobbit in his temper... i would follow him. i can't wait to see mr. boyd in the livery of the guard... i bet he looks stunning in black and silver.
i'll say it again... billy is the gold standard for this character. there will never be another pippin any more than there will ever be another scarlett o'hara.
the roles are now quite untouchable. it's a measure of billy's talent that he could do this, and why i think he'll go very far, and, like pippin... he will take a lot of people by surprise.
so when people tell me, "you're such a pippin!" i always... and i mean always... say "thanks!"
sweetie:
hi! i just wanted to drop in and tell you how much i enjoy this thread. i've been lurking here and it's wonderful to read the well-reasoned discussion of my beloved pippin.
thanks!
sweetie
uofjc1983:
all i can say after reading this thread is...wow. ditto on all the different posts; and what a great story that was by pipkin sweetgrass (post your other stories!)! i fell in love with pippin at my first reading of lotrs over fifteen years ago; i was nearly the same age as he and identified with his impulsiveness (being in my 'tweens myself!). i also liked how tolkien paired him up with a best friend in merry-- another great character worthy of discussion. i liked the many perspectives on pippin, and am overjoyed to see others felt the same way about him. i look forward to more posts!