ernil i pheriannath: pippin's darker and serious side
pearl took:
first off pipkin sweetgrass, hi! from another 48 year old tolkien and billy boyd fan!
one of the things i always liked the best about tolkien's lotr is that he lets his characters grown up and change. pippin does start out taking the whole thing like "a hobbit walking party," as gandalf says, but as the situations he encounters change, so does pippin. i like how it's established that he is this blithe spirit and then shown that he can keep that part of himself even after the hardships and pain he goes through.
"blackness and stench and crushing pain came upon pippin, and his mind fell away into a great darkness. 'so it ends as i guessed it would,' his thought said, even as it fluttered away; and it laughed a little within him ere it fled, almost gay it seemed to be casting off at last all doubt and care and fear." (rotk - the black gate opens)
even while he's dying he can find an 'up' side to things. and he and merry singing on the way back home from the grey havens, pippin's spirit doesn't let him down, it sustains him through everything.
some people have trouble with the appendices, that pippin gets married, has a son and dies, but that is life and tolkien let his characters live, and i enjoy that.
pipkin sweetgrass:
oh, pearl, so well put! tell me, would you care to join some other ladies in our age group (and older!) who just have it bad for our boys? it's at torc in guilds and alliances called middle-age crazy. we have a blast there. some of us just crack me up! please join? there we can drool away!
i don't have a problem with pippin growing up and having a son and passing on. death is, after all, part of life. hey, nobody gets out alive unless you are an elf, and not all of them get either!
as a youngster i was so much like pippin, i took very little seriously, but then, like pip, life happened to me. the older i get, the more i appreciate him.
that particular quote, when i first read it, almost gave me a heart attack! my mind screamed, "no! not pippin!"
why are pippin fanciers so rare, i wonder?
here's a pretty passage, to me: "pippin pressed forward as they passed under the lamp beneath the gate arch, and when he saw the pale face of faramir he caught his breath. it was the face of one who has been assailed by a great fear or anguish, but has mastered it, and now is quiet. proud and grave he stood for a moment as he spoke to the guard, and pippin gazing at him saw how closely he resembled boromir --whom he had loved from the first, (oh, me too, pippin!) admiring the great man's lordly but kindly manner. yet suddenly for faramir his heart was strangely moved with a feeling he had not known before. here was one with an air of high nobility such as aragorn at times revealed, less high, perhaps, yet also less incalculable and remote: one of the kings of men born into a later time, but touched with the wisdom and sadness of the elder race. he knew now why beregond spoke his name with love. he was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."
now, excuse me, but wow!
not only is pip quick of wit and quite brave, proud, yet humble, but a good judge of character as well.
yes, pip sees that which denethor could not: faramir is a man whom men devote themselves to completely. this reminds me of the southern soldiers (and my own) regard for robert e. lee, though lee was actually quite remote, as all men of great character seem to be.
i myself would follow faramir into the bloodiest battle, even if it meant my own demise. i've been honoured to meet one such as he. these men take the breath away. i can relate to pip's feelings for faramir. he is one of middle earth's finest men, imo. such men are beyond reproach, even when they make mistakes, since no one can berate them more severely than they themselves do.
i love faramir's surprise at meeting a halfling in gondor as well.
and then, as faramir speaks of meeting frodo and sam at ithilien, pippin notices gandalf's hands trembling as they grip the arms of the chair... astute pippin! our hero doesn't miss much, does he?
yep, pippin may not be "the man," he would quite loudly let you know right quick-like that he's not... but he *is* "the hobbit" though! pippin rocks!
nessie:
"the steward of gondor and his two sons" ... sounds like the bmg to me!
sorry! i just couldn't resist that!
pipkin i've really enjoyed reading your posts, and how could i have any hope to contribute after this? i have so much thought and feeling in my heart for pippin and his progress through the war of the ring, but i lack such eloquence in expressing it.
but i do remember feeling very sad for pippin at the black gate. he *really* thought he was going to die at that time - seeing the enemy advancing to him, and he thought of merry. "merry and i should die together..." and instead of delaying the inevitable, he marched right up to the front line and drew his sword.
i must express my honest thought that right here and now i feel that the movies have not yet shown pippin's character development as much as i would've liked. i can understand it from a film-making point of view, what with the main story-thread being about aragorn, and frodo; it may make things too complex to bring all that across. i am hoping in my heart it all comes to the fore in return of the king, though. but with so much stripped back from the two towers, i'm more skeptical. do you think they will include pippin's heroic deed at the black gate? or maybe they will think it enough to just have him rescue faramir from denethor's madness. after all, there is so much of the book to fit into the next movie!
oh! the hobbit/valiant man quote - one of my favourites! i love it when he says (again,i don't have the book in front of me either)
"i am a hobbit, and no more valiant than i am a man, save out of necessity."
while i'm here, could you pm me about the club for older fans of pippin? i have a friend who could fit that category, and may be interested in joining, as i am too young being in my 30's.
keenmixer:
i just wanted to let you guys know i found this thread very touching. no one else seems to be talking about these characters with such love and admiration.
i too find that merry and pippin are the only ones who are still able to keep their hobbity natures when the whole world is crashing down around them.
for example... isengard has fallen, what do our two young hobbits do? they have a feast and a smoke.
as for the prince of hobbits description, pippin is a took, and aren't the tooks the "informal" leaders of hobbits?
evil woks:
you cried when boromir died??? hehehe sorry, had to laugh, i didn't like him at all as a character.
xolamax:
boromir was a good man. people that haven't read the books seem to just label him as a jackass who wanted to hurt frodo, but that's not the case. watch the scene before caradhras where they hide from the crows of dunland where he's teaching merry and pippin sword fighting... one of my favorite moments of the film. boromir is a noble man who is easily corrupted. much like gandalf says when frodo offers him (gandalf) the ring, he would use the one ring intending to do good (save gondor) but ring would bend him towards evil. only in death does boromir truly realize this. a heavy price to pay for a lesson learned.
pipkin sweetgrass:
i agree 100% about boromir. look at his deeds! here you have your home, your country, ravaged by plague, you go to osgiliath to save this wonderful city and half of osgiliath is taken by the enemy. due to the plague the population of gondor was at its lowest... so few to fight, and daily they spill their blood to keep the lands of other people free. in the meantime, where the heck is the guy that *should* step up to the plate, namely the king...? you then travel more than 100 days to imladris, called in westernesse, rivendell, to seek council, and what do you find there but four little dudes with the world's most powerful weapon in their tiny and seemingly defenseless little hands. don't think sauron didn't sense it, either. that cursed ring started on poor boromir then and there, even in imladris, among the very elves, themselves! during the journey, boromir helped save their little bacon so many times i can't count them! at any time he could have taken the ring by force... but he fought this urge until he got to parth galen, where, no doubt, sauron redoubled his efforts.
even then, boromir knew he has been had by the ring, as the first thing he did was go 'fess up to aragorn! then he sacrificed his very life.
boromir wasn't evil, he was desperate. his death made me hate sauron all the more, and it also made me feel even more vindicated when merry and pippin destroyed isengard! yes! "kill my friend, will ya, take that!" yep, revenge for boromir's senseless but heroic death made the great victory of merry and pippin even sweeter!
funny this should be brought up because i was going to bring it up myself... how merry and pippin must have felt vindicated in avenging the death of their pal and protector, and how saruman surely must have hated them as he stood, humiliated and defeated and helpless, as the hands of these two little warriors destroyed his bid for ultimate power!
merry and pippin, given a choice, i'd rather have them with me than against me!
xolamax:
"through the blood of my people are your lands kept safe."
the weight of that line gives me chills every time i hear it. just think about it from boromir's point of view. you've seen war since as long as you can remember, your friends and family constantly dying in a hopeless war and hundreds of miles away you find a race of people living in blissful peace, holding the one thing that could end the misery that you and all your kin have lived through your entire life.
herald7:
i admit i laughed during the boromir death scene because of how he just kept getting shot, and kept getting up again etc! but i still felt bad about it.
i also couldn't help but laugh when lurtz's head gets cut off. it reminded me of monty python
"look, your heads off!"
"no it isn't! it's just a flesh wound!"
pipkin sweetgrass:
xolamax, yes, me too, and it touches a raw nerve with me because (and you can check the stats at the u.s.d.o.d.) more southerners have fought, bled and died for their country than any other group, fully 45% of medal of honor holders come from the south (i deleted most of the off-topic drivel i just placed here. one should not post with a high fever!).
i also loved it when he told frodo "do not carry the weight of the dead," it just gave me the chills, knowing what was going to happen. it was something i was dreading during the whole movie, and sure enough, i cried like a baby. sean bean dies plum pretty! i adore boromir, he was a great man and i think that, had frodo not run, boromir would *not* have taken the ring. why? because gandalf said so in gondor, when he confronted denethor on this same subject!
but fate was served in frodo's running, you see, because he and sam *had* to go alone... i suspect that had the entire fellowship gone to mordor they would have been caught. so our poor boromir had to be sacrificed, like some great, beautiful bull on the alter of greater good.
and at least merry and pippin avenged his death.
ps - sorry for getting so far off topic, next time we get a different character brought to the fore, perhaps we can start a thread for that character... plus, if i need to discuss history it'll go to the other room, so sorry, but i'm addicted to all kinds of history.
palantir:
i know you guys have kind off gone of the pippin topic for the moment, but i had to bring it up again because i just wanted to add my own two cents about my favorite pippin part of the book:
"lean on me, merry lad!" said pippin, "come now! foot by foot. it's not far."
"are you going to bury me?" said merry.
"no, indeed!" said pippin, trying to sound cheerful, thought his heart was wrung with fear and pity.
this really touched me more than any other moment with pippin. merry has always been his protector, like an older brother, almost and now, it's merry that needs help and little pippin is bound and determined to do it. i think this is really the moment where he grows up, starts to realize exactly what's going on. he's trying to be himself and keep up his spirits for merry, but it's almost like he's near his breaking point.
"so he let merry sink gently down on to the pavement in a patch of sunlight, and then he sat down beside him, laying merry's head in his lap. he felt his body and limbs gently, and took his friends hands in his own."
i was really impressed with how he acts here. he knows what he has to do and that he has to be merry's support now. what a great scene...
tookishgirl:
that also is my favorite part, palantir! it not only shows pippin's darker and more serious side, but it shows how much the journey has caused everyone, especially pippin, to grow and mature. the truth is, none of the characters would be the same, but the most significant and darkest changes are in the hobbits, which is both sweet and sad on many levels.
pipkin sweetgrass:
y'all are awesome. great posts!
i've thought so many times about this special friendship they have, and have wondered so often about merry's role in pippin's developing character. can you imagine an 8-year-old merry watching this tiny baby hobbit grow, learn to crawl, learn to walk, learn to talk, all under his supervision? they are really more like brothers than cousins. i can imagine merry watching out for this little toddler whom i would wager was a handful, feeling it was his role to look out after him, then when he's wounded so terribly, pippin comes to his aid, a true and loyal brother in so many senses of the word. i get misty when i read that. these two are such wonderful characters! i hope this makes it into the movie, as well as the "my dear ass" line.
yes, it is both sweet and sad, but at times, sadness lends yet more sweetness... and let's not forget brave. i have friends like this, so again, it touches me on a personal level, and having recently lost a friend who died at the age of 37 (she was pippin to my merry) i can imagine the fear and pain they must have gone through. (miss ya, baby girl!)
seems the more we discuss this level of pip's character, the more we discover the many jewels in the crown of our ernil i pheriannath.
we always knew on some level just how awesome pip was, but in discussing him here, we uncover many more things to love about him.
i love this thread! (hugs room)
moadster:
it's really about the loss of innocence, isn't it? and all the baggage that comes with it.