ernil i pheriannath: pippin's darker and serious side

pipkin sweetgrass:
i'd like this to be a thread for the express purpose of discussing the pippin that isn't cute or funny, but complex and quite serious.
for those who have not read the books, it may contain spoilers.
let me start off with this grim little nugget from the darker half of pippin's character... this takes place in gondor during his discussion with beregond.
"for a time they sat together with bowed heads and did not speak. then suddenly pippin looked up and sawĘthat the sun was still shining and the banners still streaming in the breeze. he shook himself. 'it is past, he said. 'no, my heartĘ will not yet despair. gandalf fell and is returned to us. we may stand, if only on one leg, or at least be left upon our knees.' "
here we see the pippin emerging that gandalf knew was hidden in that small body. he sounds already like a war-weary soldier. being a student of american history (purely for pleasure) i've read many a letter from soldiers to family, and this little speech has the tone of a battle-seasoned campaigner. gone is the care-free and blithe spirit that so endeared us to him, we see instead a grim and determined fellow, small in stature, maybe, but in spirit, very large. this is not a hobbit i would pick a fight with.
here he is in gondor, in a city where everyone is larger than himself, and with a more violent nature than a hobbit. he is, for the first time in his life, a hobbit alone, albeit in the company of men. yet still, being a hobbit, he is unlike anyone there. he's pretty much been tossed into the eye of a storm, even though he went of his own free will. he has been kidnapped by orcs, tortured by sauron, and has witnessed his dear friend boromir being killed by orcs.
his dearest friend, merry, is no longer by his side. i'm sure he was terrified, as all soldiers feel fear when a great battle is soon to come upon them, yet he stands steadfast. what a remarkable fellow he is. yet ... i'm a little saddened by it, and i'm sure his mother would not have wanted him there, but if he were my son, i would fear for him, but i'd be very proud of him as well. i wonder if tolkien was thinking of his own son in wwII when writing this. i should not at all be surprised if this was the case.
please feel free to add your own 2 cents' worth on this little speech, or add another serious pippin example.

lostsailors:
ooh! what a lovely idea for a thread. poor pippin. he's lost in a great dark world he is just beginning to understand.
i never thought his blithe spirit was lost however, i always read him as a light spark of innocence amid the battle in rotk.
when he runs to gandalf to ask for help to save faramir:
"reaching up and touching gandalf's knee with trembling hands. 'can't you save faramir?'"
he sounds still just like a little kid.
when pippin finds merry, who to me sounds much more like a war-weary soldier lost in his own despair, he tries to sound cheerful for his friend, even though he is gravely frightened.
even when pippin faces his own death, his words are not heavy by nature- rather, they are ... still youthful in way. almost as if he was surprised death actually found him.
no. i don't think he ever lost his light heart. it's like you said, he was thrown into the eye of the storm, and being as little and as young as he was, he stood up wonderfully, all the while, never letting the evil of the situation ruin forever his delightful spirit.

pipkin sweetgrass:
i agree, and am really grateful that his experiences didn't eat at him as frodo's did; though it's a miracle it didn't considering his experience with the palantír.
yes, merry did catch pure hell, remember, he had not one run-in with nazgûl, but two, one in bree and the other in battle. it's a testament to both the toughness of hobbits and the indomitable spirit of these two fellows.
the difference to me in the terror that pip went through when denethor finally "truly went fishin'", i mean, what a nut job he turned out to be! this is why i always felt sorry for both his sons. can you imagine how sick his relationships with his perspective sons were? talk about dysfunction junction! denethor was a sicker puppy than either son, imo.
i read somewhere that jrrt actually had planned to have pip die in battle, but i would have been broken-hearted had it turned out that way, i cried enough over poor boromir. i was at school, and hid in an empty classroom and just squalled like a baby.
i kind of thought this thread might draw more responses, i hope we don't wind up the only ones, but if so, it's still worth perusing.
another scene that rivets me is when pip in running all over hell and half of gondor looking for gandalf while denethor is about to make a barbecue of himself and his only surviving son. how he kept his wits about him is amazing, and again we are treated to the fine young adult pip was becoming. i also love the "my dear ass" line while he was trying to help pull merry back from death's door. it reminds me now in my later years of when my husband (called here 'beornomir", a cross between beorn and boromir/faramir) was badly burned. i was rushing him to the er and he was making freakin' jokes to calm me down, because i just about lost it. i recall pip stating later that they make light talk out of fear by saying too much. to me, this indicates that hobbits are rather deeper and more complex that people tend to think. it also reminds me of my own people, southerners, when we refer to the war between the states as "the late unpleasantness."
what wonderful folk hobbits are! i think we would be well served to be more like them. good old pippin, what a great character he is...

thetwinssidekick:
i love how, at the end of the novel, after saying good bye to frodo, when merry and pip are riding off, they are singing. so they have definitely not lost their spirits. yeah. that's about all i have to say. random comment from me.

fluffy_dragon:
i'm completely lost. i don't have the third book, and haven't read it. actually, i don't have the first or second book either, but i've seen the movies ;) when is poor pip tortured? why are he and merry separated? when does he have a son? i'm completely lost, and if anyone will take the time to help me, i will be forever grateful :)

missmithril:
nice thread, sweetgrass!
*ttt & rotk book spoilers, readers please be aware. thanks.*
i think pippin becomes "sober" during the course of the war of the ring. war will do that to anyone. but pippin also seems to go from one side of a particular mood to another, which is kind of what always drew me to his character. when i first read the books, he was instantly my favorite character and he has never lost first place. i think it's because he's both very merry and very sober (spoken like a true gemini). he seems to me to swing between different far ends of the emotional and psychic spectrum, like when he meets bergil. it seems like he's joking, but he is in dead earnest, and the boy soon realizes he's not dealing with some village kid. yet he maintains that awestruck, very respectful approach to gandalf, too, in the same chapters. he is fairly sober with denethor, but then very introspective when alone, and a little fidgety. so there seems to be a lot going on in his head and heart, and he's one of the most active characters in terms of his emotional arc. he makes a very good counterpoint to gandalf, because he continues to challenge the wizard's sense of expectations, i think. to gandalf, i think beings act according to a "nature" and according to the way things unfold in time- but pippin keeps contradicting many of the assumptions that even gandalf makes.
pippin's sense of quick assessment and judgment become, over the course of the books, impeccable. i believe this is partially the work of the palantír. but i also think it's because pippin is impulsive and does things that he "shouldn't," because he's not quite thinking things all the way through. this impulsiveness, though, served him in very good stead: he clearly seized the opportunity with grishnákh (how i wish that could have been in the movie!) he learned a lot just by listening to the orcs jabbering. he "knew" what he was doing, even though his mind was racing far ahead of where he was physically at the moment. the instinctual sense of knowing what to do, when to do it, how to fix it, is one of pippin's particular gifts. the palantír is a real turning point for pippin, because i think it's when he figures out how to use that natural impulsiveness of his to help him gain insights before he acts.
fluffydragon, awwww! all these things that you've asked about are either in the third book, rotk, or are parts of ttt that were not included in the movie version, but hopefully will be in the third movie installation. if you want more details, i'd be happy to pm you, but i don't want to give too much away by posting here, as i'm leery of too much spoilerage in my posts.
smiles,
mm

pipkin sweetgrass:
ah ha! very astute, missmithril! i see you caught that, too! yes, that palantír did do at least one thing good, give gave our hero something, though it did scare the living, um, spit out of him (poor pip! i get misty when i read about how that blasted thing hurt him). it is a testament of his character that it did him no more harm than it did. i was so relieved when gandalf said he saw no lie in his eyes, and i was so grateful to gandalf for his tender care of pippin during this horrible time. had gandalf not "hobbitnapped" pippin, we don't know how the palantír might have affected him.
yes, pippin did indeed keep gandalf on his toes. personally i think it's why he loves him so, he's like an errant child that gandalf can scold as well as spoil a bit.
pippin, the so called cute-funny-air-head, is actually a very smart and sharp little tough cookie. gandalf said all wizards should have a hobbit or two in his care to teach them the meaning of the word. i think he meant that with all his heart. pippins "hobbit pertness" served him well as well as his feisty nature. i think i named this thread well, pippin is indeed a prince of the halflings.
i often thought if pippin had not gone with frodo he may have either come into an adventure of his own, gotten into some other kind of mischief, or worse, justĘstagnated. he was meant for far more than a simple life, though he returned quite well to one in the end. his adventure (and it ain't an adventure 'til it stops being fun, i know, i have had them) served to make a better hobbit of him when he finally came home. he did well during the scouring of the shire, though i expect that had frodo not held them in check, it could have gotten a lot bloodier than it did.
tolkien said that the horrible thing about war is that it takes elves and hobbits and turns them into orcs. in a way, our hobbits show us that our warriors need not remain "orcs" once they come home, no matter how changed the returning warrior may be- it can be turned to something good. poor frodo, on the other hand, is unable to do so, his wounds are far too deep, and he must seek healing, as later on our sammy must do.
but pippin and merry, thank goodness, are able to go on, like little knights in shining armor, gallantly carrying on the spirit of the shire (of course pip really is a knight by this time, go sir pippin!). if i were a hobbit lass, i would certainly be after some of that, i can tell you. imagine, to a hobbit they were both tall and hardy, icons of male hobbit beauty and virility.
pippin was quick of wit before the palantír, though, look how he handled the orc situation, i felt cheated for pip's sake that didn't get included in the movie ttt. please pj fix it on the se!!! i don't care if it's 6 freakin' hours long, in fact i would prefer it!
i just love billy's pippin, he's so much like the pippin that has followed me around at the heels of my heart for more than half my life that i could forgive him anything short of the worst crimes.
for that, mr. boyd, i am ever in your debt. i am and shall remain ever at your side and happily send my wishes for a happy jrrt eleventy-first birthday, and sign off,
your ob'd'nt servant,
pipkin sweetgrass

lostsailors:
wow, sweetgrass, such a lovely post. you summed up just about everything i have ever thought about concerning pippin!
yes, i felt so terrible when we weren't able to see more of pippin's ingenuity in the film. he shines so in ttt. in the book he really is the one who saves merry, and gets so many things going. ha, pippin may be young and a bit silly- but so clever! nothing can keep him down, slow him up or ruin his scintillating persona which sparkles in even the darkest most evil of moments.
boyd did do a wonderful job, i was so happy to see a favourite character of mine from a book i love stay intact and remain true to his original form. very special.
gasp. i have to run. but yes, lovely post sweet.
p.s. yes! happy day to mister jrr.

pipkin sweetgrass:
i'm doing a thread over at torc about the family dynamics of the steward of gondor and his two sons, i imagine i'll be elaborating on boromir's role in the development of m & p's characters. i don't have time to go further into it at this time, but i'll eventually get into it. this is very intense... i'm tempted to bring it over here. what do you think? we seem to be of like minds, so i thought i'd get your opinion.
thank you so much for the compliment, my dear, that was so sweet.
part of what just breaks my heart about the horror of pippin and merry being hobbitnapped is wrapped up in their relationship with boromir. the scene in the movie makes me cry every time i watch it, as well as every time i read the book.
but the look on the faces of those three during that horrible episode haunts me. billy, dom and sean were so moving that it just blows my mind and breaks my heart. i always want to jump into the movie, kick some orc butt like they owe me money, and then just cuddle the terrible trio 'til all the boo-boos are all better.
i wish tolkien had written an entire book on our hobbits and boromir, perhaps a light-hearted one in the spirit of "the hobbit."
would that not have been just incredible? besides, i love the way sean bean smiles while rough-housing with our hobbitses.
i have very dear friends that remind me of those three. i'm pretty much a tomboy even as a 48 year old grandmother, and have far more male friends than female, so i'm always pretty much a sort of hobbit.
thank god my husband is not only my husband, he's my very best friend in the entire world. my beornomir is like a cross between faramir, boromir and a beorn. my personality test over a barrowdowns says i'm most like sam, but very like merry and pippin.
i identify so much with the terrible trio that i get very emotional during those scenes, especially if i've been thinking of a friend i had that passed away about two months agoĘat 37.
it makes me sort of jump into the heads and hearts of the three of them and wish they had had more time together. imagine the three of them defending gondor together!
oh, well, i guess i have to quote my favorite yankee general, ambrose beirce: of all sad things of tongue and pen, the saddest of these is "might have been."
wow, i must be tired... i'm digressing to the point that i must seem about as cohesive as a chimpanzee's fire drill.

pepin took:
a fellow southern belle!=)
ahem... back to subject at hand...
possible spoilers for some people follow:
one must keep in mind that our dearest peregrin "pippin" took is a descendent of the one and only bullroarer took, if i understand right. bullroarer was an unusually large hobbit and extremely feisty. he is the one, according to the hobbit, that invented the game of golf.it was during a battle in which he whacks the head of the goblin king golfimbul with his club. the king's head went flying across the meadow and landed in a wee rabbit hole. morbid tale, but that is the story of the took ancestry.
the took family was one clan that was not intimidated when "sharkey" raided the shire with his gang of thugs as well. another clan would be, of course, the brandybucks. they were able to hide out and stake their grounds. while unable to rescue the shire from these thugs until the return of the hobbit heroes, they were a feisty group that did not give in to the gang of the big people either.
it was in pippin's blood, methinks.
based on what i have studied on the stories behind the stories, tolkien fashioned pippin after the sort of character who lives according to the old saying, "what does not kill you makes you stronger." pippin is the war hero that comes back stronger, the one that returns home from war and uses his new skills and wisdom to do good for his community, the sort of "knight in shining armor" that marches proudly in the parades as the confetti flies about.
frodo, on the other hand, is the tragic case of the shell-shocked veteran whose battle scars and trauma have gone too deep.part of it is physical (the shoulder wound and the loss of the finger) but the more harmful part is the emotional scars, especially in relation to the guilt about smeagol. but i digress...
yes, pippin is "small" but the trials make him show just how strong he really is, and how his behavior that was once mistaken as carelessness or even foolishness is in reality an admirable sort of resilience that i myself envy very much.

christinette:
you know what? that's what i like about these books. depending on the way you read them, or maybe how old you are when you read them, you understand the different things (a little bit like le petite prince). tolkien doesn't just tell a fantasy war story, it's a whole world he created there and so compleat too! we could spend so much time talking about all the history and events of middle earth.
but what mostly amazes me is how well he created the psychological aspects of many of his characters. they have different fears and strengths and limits and everything. they all change and grow up and get more mature or fight "inner-battles." the characters evolve. we could talk about the psychological aspects of characters like with sweet pippin and all the others.
that's what makes me want to read these books over and over again!!!
well hehehe.... maybe i'm a little off of subject here too. sorry!

lostsailors:
gasp- how aptly put, pepin! a knight in shining armor versus a shell shocked veteran. i never thought of pippin or frodo's characters as such, but it is a great point! nice similie. yes, it does seem to be in pippin's blood to become something a little more audacious than the average hobbit.
ha, it just took a whole huge adventure involving all the world to bring it out of him. i don't think he ever thought he had it in him. in fotr he has such thoughts such as the following: 'i wish i had taken elrond's advice,' muttered pippin to sam. 'i am no good after all. there is not enough of the breed of bandobras the bullroarer in me...'
he doubts himself, and if he will ever find enough bravery in his character to endure the trials before him.
i thought in the extended version of the film the line "you will find your courage" spoken by galadriel to pippin was a wonderful addition, giving such insight to his character, which at first appears to be so flippant at times, telling the audience, there is more to the him than just charm and humor. he's also frightened like the rest of his companions. he's scared he won't be brave enough in the end. he's searching himself to find what will keep him going.

pepin took:
you know how to make me blush. i wish i had been able to observe it myself, but it was told to me by the more scholarly tolkien fans.
i totally forgot about that part, what galadriel says to him. i am glad you reminded me. silly me. i do remember how he was slapping himself (mentally) while he was prisoner of the orcs in the novel ttt, berating himself for being such a meaningless deadweight.

pipkin sweetgrass:
another scene i like is when gandalf and pippin first arrive in gondor. gandalf describes pippin as a "valiant man" (this is all from memory, so if i'm off a bit please forgive me). pippin says, "man! certainly not!" and goes on to say he's only valiant when he has to be, and thank you very much, he's no man, but a hobbit.
again we see his dual nature. here he is both humble and proud.
on a personal note, i've been accused of being a bit of a pippin at times. sometimes i can't believe some of the things that fall out of my mouth, and i also surprise myself with strength unbidden and uncalled for.
pippin only briefly plunges into despair, but always surfaces all the stronger.
i think, too, that both he and merry were very hurt by boromir's death, and i think pip probably blamed himself for the whole balrog thing. in the movie, billy's performance when exiting moria was excellent, in fact brilliant! it's another scene that tears my heart in two.

next ?
... x