lostsailors:
uofjc! you're so nice, "devoted fan..." aw, i just think i don't have a life half the time!
you're the best, you make me smile!
just like you said uofjc, i was thinking the scene could still work if only they could find a replacement for beregond. i was secretly hoping somehow it would be faramir. he seems to the most natural choice to replace the other two in the earlier part of the story, instead of bergil and beregond giving pippin the tour of gondor, maybe he could. having faramir show pippin about, could really create a bond between the two characters, giving you reason to believe pippin would want to name his future son after the captain- though i really highly doubt that last bit clear from the appendixes would ever make it to celluloid, it would still be a nice touch for the book savvy audience. but, the possibility of faramir being there when pippin slays the troll seems very slim, i don't know, i cannot for the life of me right now remember if faramir is even there at the battle. i've gone brain dead, it's really time for bed!
let's see. ag! i can't remember. i know all my pippin info, but i am so dense with everything else. let the memory come... ok! no no! faramir can't be there. or at least he wasn't in the books. my, i am so terrible with my memory! he was mortally wounded right? in the battle of pelennor... psycho denethor nearly burned him... faramir was admitted to the houses of healing and was there when éowyn was, because they fell in love there while waiting for aragorn's company (including pippin) to return, they were there with merry.
blast.
so faramir couldn't act as the replacement body in pippin's shining moment, unless there is some major plot reworking.
but hey, if haldir can end up at helm's deep anything can happen, right? we'll see. we'll see. where there's a will there's a way. pippin has to be granted some lovely moment.
maybe he will save aragorn or something.
oh, pipkin i agree. i'm also so worried this scene won't be handled at all. so cruel to suffer such a loss! it's a wonderful scene, but i guess it isn't really crucial to the plot- woe.
slight tangent: have any of you ever heard of tolkien actually considered killing of pippin? pippin's last battle scene was supposed to be his death scene, but in the end, tolkien brought pippin back.
can you imagine if pippin had been gone forever though? it would have broken my heart. i remember the first time i read the book i really thought he was gone, i was so shocked. i just stopped reading and stared out at nothing thinking "my favourite character is dead?"
it is, however, a very romantic (in the literary sense of the word) notion, this young, innocent soldier who was brought up in peace and sunshine, who suddenly finds himself dying in the dark and mud of a strange far-off place.
the characters do become very real to you. last year- excuse me, last last year, in 2001 when fotr was released, i went to the film and realized i really had to reacquaint myself with the novels, which i hadn't read in a couple of years. i went and found them and in the process of four days went from the hobbit to the last rotk appendix. it was a rollercoaster. you really become utterly consumed by the characters' trials and tribulations. in the end, you feel as if you had been there all the while. you feel all the drama and aches and love the characters feel. when one dies, or leaves to an unseen paradise, your heart rends. it's like you have personally lost a friend, and there is no way to recall them back to your side. nothing will ever be same, they are gone.
at least, such was my depressive feeling at the end of rotk!
it's a beautiful, moving experience. reading those books. i love the films very dearly, obviously. but the books, ah. a few words from sam to frodo, or a last fleeting thought of peregrin took can make me cry in an instant. the writing is pure magic, nothing could ever out do it.
and, ha! uofjc, you asked me write and look here's such huge random novel for you. excuse me everyone, i'm on paper writing mode!
oi...
pipkin sweetgrass:
lol "oi" indeed! i happen to love monster posts.
yes, i know what you mean... somehow when i read the books i get this "i wanna go home!" feeling, and i ain't talking about my real life.
it really is no wonder jrrt readers are so protective of his work. these people are almost like family to you. and the weird thing is, they aren't even real, yet somehow, they are!
some can't handle the appendices, but i love them. just goes to show you the appetite for middle-earth these stories give you. i think this is why there is so much fan fic. speaking of which, i read a pretty good one called "the care and feeding of hobbits," which was pretty much fluff until the last three words, which made me tear-up completely. some people actually have a talent for fan fic. too bad there is so much garbage to sort through.
anyway, let's get back to our discussion. someone post a merry one for a change. i would, but i'm very short on time right now, have to go take care of the mother-in-law (she is being very difficult right now and my nerves are just shot).
palantir:
pipkin, links??? i want to read it!
uofjc1983:
... well, it's not quite midnight here, but i did read every word!
i loved the faramir idea, but yeah, he, éowyn and merry are back at the houses of healing (i had a good chuckle at you wracking your brain!). i even wish to some degree that jrrt wrote faramir in that story line rather than beregond, knowing though, it would've been impossible due to the siege of gondor.
pippin's "moment" just has to be there-- this will be the moment of truth for pj. he's used plenty of artistic license in the film, but with this scene, and the palantír scene i draw the line!
now it's my turn to wrack my brain... i'm going to have to get a little inspiration from the books or the movie for merry. not that that will be hard-- he has a little piece of my heart as well (pippin has the majority of it!), but i need to feel what i'm going to write... i voted to include him, so perhaps i should contribute a tad!
i'll be back... oh, wrong movie!
pipkin sweetgrass:
here you go!
it's really quite good, and made me think about pippin's reasoning in pledging service to denethor.
diamondlass:
i don't know what was said on the rest of the thread, but pippin was never as dumb as many seem to think, and he certainly was never meant to be just a silly comic relief. even in fotr (the book) he mentions that perhaps he's just a burden on the other members of the fellowship, and the more he deals with, the more he comes in to his own and really develops as someone who is quite helpful, thoughtful and indeed, wise. a beautiful and quite respectable individual if you ask me.
herald7:
i've read that fanfic before. yes i do think it gives a good explanation as to why he pledges his service to denethor.
pipkin sweetgrass:
well, when you think about it, it makes sense. why would he not? here is this man who sacrificed his life for you, you get a chance to pay back this debt, so why wouldn't you?
you know, boromir was at a distinct disadvantage when came to hobbits, until he came to imladris, they were just a mythical creature to him.
think about it, what would you do if a hobbit just showed up in your life? you'd be freakin'. i would. i'd be loving it, but i'd still be freakin'.
herald7:
if they really wanted to make saving faramir pippin's shining moment, i think it could work. it would be the first real time that he took charge of a situation and successfully helped someone other than himself.
lostsailors:
i think it could work too, it would be neat dramatically- nice cyclical theme. boromir sacrifices his life to save pippin, then pippin nearly sakes his life for faramir, to return the favour to boromir. the only issue is éowyn and faramir's love story has to exist as well... gasp! it will be such a surprise when it rolls around. please... let pippin have some nice redeeming moment in the films! people who haven't read the books have no idea just how clever he is!
diamondlass, this rather goes along with what you were saying. the movie-only crowd tends to think pippin is just some silly little dense person, when really he's just young and naive. not giving him a chance i say! he really does grow up into an impressive individual.
herald7:
or even if it wasn't saving faramir from the troll. saving faramir from burning to death would work too.
uofjc1983:
i've read the last few posts on pippin's intelligence, and very true, the movie doesn't show the full personality of pippin. although pippin is not a clown, he does have his funny moments in the books-- how bout that bathtub scene where he just splashes water everywhere for the sheer joy of it? or, he tells frodo "short cuts make for long delays" because in the back of his mind, he's hoping to stop in stock for the best beer in the eastfarthing! no one should doubt the intelligence of pip: in rotk, when denethor was about to cook himself and faramir, this little 4 foot nothing hobbit literally took charge and barked orders to the king's own personal guards and eventually saved faramir's life and in ttt, another pippin moment where his wits out-witted others, was when grishnák was groping him and merry for "something." it was pippin who figured out what the orc wanted (they're so dull-witted anyway!) and instantly played on it as a bargaining tool to get loose. there are so many more, but i only wanted to give credence to the fact that pippin is no mere piece of luggage!
lostsailors:
so true so true! there are so many clever moments in the two towers. another moment in ttt is when pippin cuts his orc bonds. it's pippin who ends up freeing merry! in the film... well, pippin does cut his ropes first, but not in the sneaky clever fashion as in the novels. sadness! at least the elven cloak latch was left in the film. pippin is smart, he's just distracted most of the time. but really, when push comes to shove he can act. it's just his youthfulness, really. he's so young, he can't be expected to perform on par every five seconds. he has to make mistakes to learn.
heavens!
i love the bath scene uofjc, it's one of my most favourites. i love it when pippin makes the terrific splash at the end and merry comes in to reprimand him, telling pippin if he wants dinner he's going to have to mop up his mess. really shows their two personalities, pippin- this joyful bottle rocket and merry the slightly more subdued hobbit trying to get his cousin to toe the line.
ah.
great moments all of them.
grief! speaking of shortcuts which make long delays... i have to run off and make cookies!
pipkin sweetgrass:
you know, i was just thinking, people who think of pip as no more than comic relief would do well to avoid this place like the plague, or else read all the posts. we are a rare bunch here - we see the diamond in the rough, and what a perfect diamond it is! much like the staunch boromirist!
now don't get me wrong, i love all of the 9 walkers, but pip is such an unlikely hero. it's almost metaphysical... things tend to "just happen" around pippin.
fate has his hand firmly on pippin. i love him so. he wears his heart on his sleeve, and is not above a good fright or cry for that matter, but then he's so brave and clever.
pippin is also a soldier. i hate war, but i love the soldier. the common soldier transcends war itself, defeating war itself, because he fights for his fellow soldier.
i remember one scene in the book, i think rotk, where he feels "like a rustic" ..i know that feeling, too, pippin. it's like he feels that some think he's just some simple-minded redneck.
someone should have told him there is nothing wrong with being rustic.
i'm really disappointed that the scouring of the shire won't be in the movie, because in this part we see that hobbits can do quite well for themselves. they have no help from men or any of the big folk. kind of stealing their thunder, like when pj had arwen carry frodo to the ford of bruinen, when actually frodo was all alone. i don't want people to think hobbits have to be taken care of, they can do it for themselves. granted, if i were around one i would find it hard to not be protective, but i would try my best not to patronize them.
uofjc1983:
laughing my butt off at lostsailors and pipkin sweetgrass' posts! i was going to include merry's reprimand, but thought i was going on just a bit... but i love that whole moment, too!
mmmmm... cookies!
pipkin, you said you hate war but love the soldier-- as do i. and i've heard way too many "sea stories" that balance out the soldier's experience. as i said earlier, i wrote a very short piece in regard to merry and his initial experience with war first-hand. i hope others can go further with it, though it's not much.
and you brought up another good point that i've been pondering all day-- if hobbit years (like dog years!!) were converted to man years, how old would pippin truly be? sixteen? that would provide an answer about his naive and impulsiveness, yet capable of making some very good decisions.
pippin himself said he was considered little more than a boy in the shire. merry? about nineteen or twenty? good grief-- if their mothers only knew what they were up to! fatty told their families that they had gone into the old forest, and so after a while, they (the families) gave them up for dead-- the anguish their parents must have felt.
right through the charge merry had been borne unharmed behind [dernhelm], until the shadow came; and then windfola had thrown them in his terror, and now ran wild upon the plain. merry crawled on all fours like a dazed beast, and such a horror was on him that he was blind and sick.
'king's man! king's man!' his heart cried within him. 'you must stay by him. as a father you shall be to me, you said.' but his will made no answer, and his body shook. he dared not open his eyes or look up.
this excerpt kind of speaks for itself; there's merry lying on the ground, literally frozen in terror, and can barely think straight, let alone answer a plea from his heart to stay with the king. fear, danger and confusion surround him; his whole body is trembling and he is blind and sick to his stomach in fear. i would venture to say merry resembles any 18 or 19 year old young man, having grown up sheltered in a small village or town, and now has gone off to fight a war in a country too far away to imagine and finds himself smack in the middle of gunfire and explosions. yet deep inside, merry incredibly overcomes his fear. to us this seems amazing and it is astonishing because only a few months earlier he was lighting candles on bilbo's birthday cake, singing songs, and getting into mischief with his young cousin pippin around the shire.Êi hope against all hope that pj gives merry his special moment here, along with pippin's at the black gate.
okay, this was my "monster post"--enjoy!