herald7:
one thing about that chapter. it may be nothing but... merry reminds pippin not to "mettle in the affairs of wizards". later, after the palantír incident is over, gandalf says to pippin something like "if you insist on meddling in the affairs of wizards..."
now that may just be by accident but... what do you think?
lostsailors:
i always thought merry was disappointed as well. i thought it was so sad when he had to turn away from his friend. what such shame could merry have felt so much he couldn't even look his pippin? couldn't even look into his eyes? pippin must have felt so terrible, to bring on such disappointment. when your closest confidant is so grieved by your actions they can't even look at you, you know you have done something really wrong.
pippin was the only one who really saw the dark lord, wasn't he? next to aragorn who also looked in the palantír. i think it speaks volumes about his character the way he comes away from the event unscathed, no worse off than perhaps a little more wary. only one of the truest innocence and the purest of heart could stand to such a challenge and survive.
aw.
i love the palantír sequence, it's one of my most favourite moments in the entire storyline. it's intense and exciting and like pipkin was mentioning earlier about hyper pippin not being able to sleep- the characterization of pippin throughout the section is wonderful! his youthfulness just shines through and makes me smile.
gasp, wait, "untold tales" is this a different volume than "unfinished tales"? there's nothing of diamond in the latter novel. is there really a bit about pippin's marriage in the other? if so i might just have to trot off and give it a read.
pipkin sweetgrass:
untold=unfinished, sorry, i had brain, um, gas.
i loved that part where gandalf and pippin become closer too. gandalf is changed from the balrog thing, and pippin is changed by the palantír, *somewhat*. it's this part where i see his darker side emerge. i think i love him so *because* he makes mistakes, feels jealous, and isn't afraid to wear his heart on his sleeve.
i love merry for being the "big brother." he's as steadfast as sam is to frodo, but unlike sam and frodo, merry knows he has to ride herd on his junior partner... he takes this job seriously as sam does his own.
maybe it's the fallowhide in pippin that gives him his fire. merry's steady-on stoor blood shows up well, too. if i had to get in a fight, i'd want a merry and a pippin right there with me.
it was sad to me when they parted. come to think of it, it was sad when they reunited as well. merry was really bad off, and pip was right there for his cuz.
these are friends who are just meant to be there for each other- you just feel that through the entire story.
herald7:
grrr... ok i just got told that pippin was really necessary to the story! ::sigh::
i told her pippin represents the normal person. most people go around not realizing the seriousness of life and living in their own little world. his heart has always been in the right place, but his head hasn't! in gondor, he gets the opportunity to do something useful, like saving faramir.
pipkin sweetgrass:
i think the whole mission, quest, thing would have fallen flat on its face without merry and pippin. i am, however, a staunch pippinist and well as boromirist.
does this say something about my taste in men, i wonder?
i mentioned in a previous post, i think it was the one before the last, that it was sad when merry and pippin reunited. while i was quite happy to see these two "brothers" together again, the circumstances under which it happened was just about overwhelming to me. and so, oh faithful followers of the thread pheriannath, let us elaborate:
paragraph 5 of chapter 8, the houses of healing, merry first hears the voice of his dearest friend after having been suddenly separated. they had been, in fact, almost torn from each other. i sometimes wonder if that had been the first time they had ever been apart, aside from the odd now-and-again kind of separation of every-day life.
these two remind me of identical twins. how hard it must have been on the two of them!
... "this is a tunnel leading to a tomb; there we shall stay forever." but suddenly into his dream there fell a living voice.
"well, merry! thank goodness i found you!"
he looked up and the mist before his eyes cleared a little. there was pippin! they were face to face in a narrow lane, and but for themselves, it was empty. he rubbed his eyes.
('scuse me while i do a little eye-rubbing of my own. oh, to heck with composure! *sob* sniffle, sniffle)
this is an extremely touching scene, to me. if pj leaves this out of the movie, he may have to go into hiding.
i find this a little hard to write about, it's so moving.
please, feel free to go into detail on this particular part of this thread.
we see so much of the inner merry and pippin in this part of the book, and it's that inner hobbit of each of our lads that i find more than moving, i find it inspiring!
i can't stay and write one of my usual monster posts as i have to go take care of the mother-in-law, so please, if one of you will, i would be very grateful if you took up a little slack for me today, and beg your forgiveness for my shortage of time.
for those of you who asked, "pippin catches a cold" is finished. i would love a read/review/critique, if you will be so kind as to indulge me.
it's right here.
uofjc1983:
i couldn't agree with you more on merry and pippin's involvement with the quest... thing! i'm sure i'm missing some points, but from the time they were captured by the orcs to their efforts in the war against sauron (rotk), there's no doubt in my mind that these two young hobbits were playing a critical role. merry and pippin being captured allowed frodo and sam to escape; if the younger two weren't with the fellowship, the orcs would've scoured the place until they found the "halflings" saruman sought. the twosome were able awaken the ents into action, and pippin's look into the palantír caused sauron to play his hand sooner than he wanted. following theoden into war, merry (in joint effort with éowyn) helped to kill the nazgûl, and therefore crippled an attack on minas tirith. not to mention, pippin saving the life of faramir, among others.
no doubt in my mind.
palantir:
i'm sorry i don't have anything to add to the discussion today, but i have to say... if it's possible... this thread has made me love merry and pippin even more!
pipkin, as usual... you got me all teary-eyed. i love your writing.
uofjc1983:
oh, my heart just cries for those two in that chapter, and to go further...
"lean on me, merry lad!" said pippin. "come now! foot by foot. it's not far."
"are you going to bury me?" said merry.
"no indeed!" said pippin, trying to sound cheerful, though his heart was wrung with fear and pity. "no, we are going to the houses of healing."
pippin sees bergil and sends him to get mithrandir (gandalf).
"i'd better wait here", thought pippin. so he let merry sink gently down onto the pavement in a patch of sunlight, and then he sat down beside him, laying merry's head in his lap. he felt his body and limbs gently, and took his friend's hands in his own...
and later in the houses of healing...
"poor old merry!" cried pippin, and he ran to the bedside, for it seemed to him that his friend looked worse and a greyness was in his face, as if a weight of years of sorrow lay on him; and suddenly a fear seized pippin that merry would die.
here is merry, the "older brother" no longer in control, full of pain and fear, while pippin, the "younger brother," full of love for merry, begins to care for him long before anyone else arrives on the scene. and then the fear that seizes pippin's heart; would merry die? oh, the love between these two! no one could know this affectionate love except for them. and the stories! if i could have just one of these wonderful hobbits for a cousin, life would be an absolute joy!
pipkin, i read your story, and as usual, i am in awe... i loved it! thanks for sharing it!
lostsailors:
oh the reunion! my heart breaks a thousand times when i read it. it's so touching. such evidence of pippin's spirit. it is a dark hour, he finally meets again with his dearest friend only to find him on the threshold death. still though, pippin puts on a cheerful front. inside he's terrified, but he still talks lightly to get his cousin to move, even when merry is talking of being buried in a grave. in the end, when pippin sees he cannot lead merry to help, he resigns to sit down and just be with him. just be there for his ailing friend. provide protection and love when merry is lost and alone.
it's so wonderful. i hope it makes it into the film version as well, there hasn't been nearly enough expressions of love for my taste. i would like the rest of the world too who hasn't read the books to see this wonderful friendship played out to its fullest extent.
be still my beating heart!
nessie:
i have been on an eternal search for the background of pippin's marriage, but have come up with nothing at all. as herald7 suggested, i too got the impression it was like an arranged marriage. i hope not though! if i could go back in time and sit with tolkien, that would be one of the first things i'd ask him to explain to me. and i am certain that he would explain it in great detail, as he always did when people raised questions to him.
lostsailors:
having done much researching myself for the site linked in my sig tag, i know what you mean! there is no information on the cousin hobbits after the end of the book. pippin has a few tiny phrases mentioning his marriage and son and then a few of his activities as thain.
ha, there are even discrepancies in poor merry's fate. there is no record of merry having children in the family trees, yet it is said when he left the shire for the last time, he and pippin gave their offices to their sons. interesting... since merry seemed to have no offspring...
i think merry's wife changes too, depending on what version of the novel you have or something.
sam is granted some details, at least.
otherwise, yes, nothing! you can read all there is to know about the kings of gondor and all their happenings, but there isn't even a word for the thains of the shire.
what are the poor people interested in peregrin took to do?
oh, i hope it wasn't an arranged marriage. it would make sense however, pippin being from such an elite family, but the eternal romantic in me weeps at the thought, pippin that fiery little upstart bound by family law? ahh!
too bad there isn't anyone around any more to ask. sigh.
maggiest:
sounds like it might have been arranged... still, i also get the impression that after the war, pippin would have been strong enough, that had he not approved of his chosen wife, he would have said no and refused to marry her.
am i correct in thinking that faramir, son of pippin and diamond later married goldilocks, daughter of samwise & rosie?
i feel bad that frodo never married and merry seems to have no children, but sam more than made up for their lack of offspring!
herald7:
yes faramir took and goldilocks gamgee got married, according to the appendix. i bet the tooks never imagined that!