lostsailors:
i think agree with cuddle, nothing really about pippin's attitude gives a hint of his being raised up as a farmhand worker. though... then we all have to wonder what he did do with his time if he was not helping out his father.
whatever he did, one thing is for certain, the boy was- aw, spoiled is such a harsh word, pippin was still good, just a little shirty at times- he was pampered. i love it. he was the youngest child, and only son in his family. all those sisters? he was doted upon. he was probably allowed to get away with everything. they were off being dutiful when he was off being silly. dear pippin.
hee! i was also thinking about the farmer job as seen in a shire light- a person who provides food? he would be kept in high regards!
palantir:
i bet his sisters sure would have had something to say (or do) about all his little pranks, though. lostsailors, i agree! someone who was growing food must have been considered a god to the hobbits! and also, farmer maggot seemed pretty prominent.
herald7:
i don't get the impression the tooks would be the ones farming their land. that's what servants are for. the lower class hobbits need jobs.
pippin does act a little superior to sam, but i don't think it's all about class. sam is a shy, and self deprecating while pippin is very open and loud. he doesn't dislike sam, a lot of it is just boyish teasing.
palantir:
i agree, pippin teases frodo too sometimes, and that's not a class issue. i can't remember the exact lines, but there was some point when pippin told frodo that they were going to eat his breakfast while he slept, but sam insisted they save some, lol.
lostsailors:
oh yes indeed! i think he's just teasing sam. there's no malicious intent or class prejudice in pippin's words. it's just like you said herald, sam's a little more reserved and what with pippin being so flamboyant, well... nothing slips by him without a word or two.
but yes, they are friends. ha, my favourite is when frodo says his pack is heavy and sam offers to carry it for him and pippin steps in telling sam not to cater to frodo and let him carry his own pack.
'i am sure you have given me all the heaviest stuff,' said frodo. 'i pity snails, and all that carry their homes on their backs.'
'i could take a lot more yet, sir. my packet is quite light,' said sam stoutly and untruthfully.
'no, you don't, sam!' said pippin. 'it is good for him. he's got nothing except what he ordered us to pack. he's been slack lately, and he'll feel the weight less when he has walked off some of his own.'
'be kind to a poor old hobbit!' laughed frodo.
ooh, such cheek! but he's so funny and sweet at the same time.
uofjc1983:
oh, these are good! pippin's teasing frodo about his pack-- that was a funny moment!
oh, yeah, and i have to vote 'yes' on the youngest and only son issue! my brother was the youngest and only son (we have an older sister also) ... well, okay, i grew up a jealous sister, but my brother was definitely pampered! and while i think pippin probably enjoyed the attention and getting away with pranks, he still was brought up well, because if he wasn't, he wouldn't have had the heart he did towards others.
cuddlehobbit:
i think there's a difference in the way pippin teases sam and the way he teases frodo. i mean, he teases frodo level to level, and frodo can hit back. sam can't or doesn't want to. i think second rather. he calls sam to prepare his breakfast and all, and he wouldn't have done that with frodo. of course he's not evilly thinking he's upper class and sam's lower class, it's just the way it is. i think this was discussed in a sam thread a while ago, the shire was very hierarchical, and no one complained about that. sam was happy to be the peasant he was and i don't think he took pippin's behaviour personally or was hurt by it. it was just natural for those hobbits to behave like that. though, of course once pippin interacted with real people from upper classes, so high above him like elves or aragorn, he really lost that bossy behaviour.
pipkin sweetgrass:
i think perhaps pippin was not so much being bossy as sassy. he'd sass most anyone.
the class system was definitely at work in hobbit society, but this is no judgment on my part. that was just the way society best worked for them.
i'd still have to say that pippin was expected to do chores, which would include at least some labor, but the big difference in our society and hobbit society in this matter is hobbit nature. we know they begin to cook around the age of two. now, we also know hobbits have a deep and abiding love of all things growing, and seem to be just as passionate about growing food as eating it. i remember growing up as a farmer's daughter that i took a great deal of pride in my work. this work was expected of me, and i was glad to do it, because my father also was a shipwright, so quite a bit of labor was delegated to the youngsters.
i was the youngest of eight, but get this: my brother, older than me by 13 months, was the spoiled one. i will have to add, though, that had pip been my brother, i would have helped to spoil him.
my youngest grand daughter is like that. the two older ones help spoil her r-o-t-t-e-n. she has much the same personality as pippin.
getting back to the class system, just briefly, not too long ago i was at a board discussing sam, and this one poor chap really stuck his foot in his mouth. he started off with "the movie is better than the book" and said that sam calling frodo "master" was too close to "massa." i was furious! i explained that for one thing, mr. is short for "master" and would he please take care to not insult the memory of slaves by suggesting they were weak and servile, they were neither of those things, they were born into a system (just like everyone else) and were a product of their times and society. i also explained that some of my heroes were slaves, and asked him to please give them respect in death that they most likely did not get in life. also, that even a slave (or servant) may rise to greatness. i get a little testy about sam sometimes... i love and admire him so very much!
well, i've rambled enough for now, next post i'll find a good passage to discuss.
laters, gators!
lostsailors:
sass! there is the word i have been looking for! i had been using "cheek" but no, sass! that is the word for pippin. he gives sass to those he know will take it from him (ie sam), and even to some who find it tiresome (ie gandalf).
what a boy! it's all in good spirit. it's just sass.
i'm still not convinced of pippin's work load. he almost seems like a tom sawyer type. he may be given work to do, but in the end he tricks someone else into painting the fence for him.
blast it. must run. i'm being naughty checking out this thread, but i have to stop by near every chance i get!
herald7:
yea tom sawyer's a good comparison.
that's dumb saying sam is saying "massa". people need to make an attempt to understand the books if they're going to read them.
pearl took:
hi all!
i've not been here in awhile and have missed out on some good discussion!
for me, and i make use of this in one of my stories, i think that pippin and his father might have helped out with the farming in the planting and harvest times. they are the busiest times and i know that even on farms with plenty of hired hands, the owner (master) and his older sons would often help at those times though not at any others and i do think he might have had chores as well.
i also agree that pippin would have been coddled, pampered and doted on. the only boy, the baby and the heir. yep, he was doomed to be everyone's darling. i've liked how, in some of the fan fiction i've read, they have him being a favorite in the brandybuck household as well seeing as he is the nephew of the master of the buckland, being the son of the master's wife's brother. that would make him special to both households.
i also think there was a degree of ease between the well-to-do and the working hobbits as, even in the books, they are shown socializing together. those from the prominent families are accorded a level of respect but there doesn't seem to be the distance that we might expect nowadays. when they are walking to crickhollow, pippin is setting out the plates and cups for breakfast and he and frodo end up fetching the water, even though sam is there and to our minds perhaps should have been 'expected' to take care of all such menial tasks.
good points too, pipkin s. about the servants and slaves thing. house slaves were particularly well thought of by their owners and the 'mammies' that were nursemaids to the children were well loved by those children. the children often feeling closer to them than to their busy parents. many house slaves stayed on with their families and became house servants because of the strong bonds between them and the white family they served. they were still in service, but service is not necessarily demeaning.
pearl took
palantir:
yeah, you definitely get the impression that sam and the gaffer are more like friends of the family who help out around bag end, rather than than slaves or servants. it's not like hobbits to put people down and make them serve them at a lowly level. they acknowledge the class divisions but don't use them to create barriers among them.
nessie:
i was reading some earlier drafts of tolkien and when it came to the line of pippin telling bergil what his dad did for a living, there was a change. it was published, i think, as "my dad farms the lands 'round whitwell near tuckborough in the shire". but an earlier draft read, "my dad owns the lands 'round whitwell near tuckborough in the shire" i think tolkien was conscious of the difference...
palatir:
that's interesting, i like the change.
herald7:
yea the first one makes pippin sound a little too pampered.
"what does you father do?"
"well my father owns something"
lol